Numbers for the Cleave / Eviscerate Debate

[dont feel no pain]

well realy cleave(4 adren) is a cheap +26 (max) extra dmg where
eviscerate is executioners strike+43 (max) + deepwound and it's 7 adren 1 less than normal executiioners
so realy eviscerate owns all muhahaha

[Moskel]

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's the popular viewpoint. Personally, I don't understand why someone would give up the ability to absolutely mangle someone with upwards of 200 damage in less than a second, as well as weaken all of their other adrenal skills, for .5 DPS or whatever trivial over time boost they might get from Cleave. Can anyone explain why anyone would play Cleave over Eviscerate, well, ever?

Peace,
-CxE

I play Cleave over Evisc when soloing the Grawl outside of port sledge Thats about it. The rest of the time I run Evisc including all PvP situations. The Grawl Ulodytes have Plague Signet {E} and I really don't like Deep Wounding myself constantly

[Fred Kiwi]

ARRRRGGHHGGHG!

do you expect me to read all of that?

[Savio]

Originally Posted by Fred Kiwi

ARRRRGGHHGGHG!

do you expect me to read all of that?

Yes, if you take the Cleave vs Eviscerate thing seriously.

I know I wasn't going to touch this thread again, but things have changed with the update and whatnot. I'm still going to be running Eviscerate, but how much more DPS does Cleave gain under the new rules?

[goefNL]

Well, as i can say, Frenzy was ''bugged'' it did +50% attack speed they lowered it to +33%...

Só people have to start recalculating

[twicky_kid]

this is the one and only reason i support cleave as my elite instead of eviscerate, we have dismember. you don't need eviscerate for the dmg and deep wound. i can deal huge amounts of dmg fast and then dismember when they are about half life then finish off with pentrating and cleave chain. you get the spike from eviscerate the first time you use it. after that it becomes another executioner's strike that is too expensive to use in a chain.

fgj and tf axe warrior with cleave is devistating. i have single handedly killed boon monks, pro monks, healing monks, and smiters.

[cro kickass]

hehe now cleave deal +30 dam , that mean that with cleave i deal about +93 dam to monk when with eviscirate +110 ---> eviscirate sucks
for great dam use this combo :
dismember, axe rake , cleave , pentrating and distrupting chop , hola it works

[smurfhunter]

im starting to think cleave (under the new update) would be better in certain circumstances, for example in a degen group as the only warrior, spiking wont get you anywhere since the monks are busy healing the degen anyway. i think a more constant output of damage would be better in that situation at least.

anyway im still testing this stuff out.

[twicky_kid]

Originally Posted by cro kickass

hehe now cleave deal +30 dam , that mean that with cleave i deal about +93 dam to monk when with eviscirate +110 ---> eviscirate sucks
for great dam use this combo :
dismember, axe rake , cleave , pentrating and distrupting chop , hola it works

i'm using just about the exact same build. using wild blow instead of disrupting chop. i hate rangers with a passion.

[id0l]

Originally Posted by goefNL

Well, as i can say, Frenzy was ''bugged'' it did +50% attack speed they lowered it to +33%...

Só people have to start recalculating

No it wasn't, the lowering to +33% is in regards to stacking speed buffs, i.e. stacking Frenzy and I Will Avenge You. But I thought the same thing at first.

Originally Posted by cro kickass

hehe now cleave deal +30 dam , that mean that with cleave i deal about +93 dam to monk when with eviscirate +110 ---> eviscirate sucks
for great dam use this combo :
dismember, axe rake , cleave , pentrating and distrupting chop , hola it works

Nice unsupported conclusion you have there. Since you totally take everything into consideration, and all.

Hmm, so Cleave does a small bit more damage now. Whoopdee freakin' doo. I think I'll stick with Eviscerate. I love my free deepwound AND damage in one skill. No wasting slots for me. Plus, it still spikes better, and Cleave still wastes adrenaline (because you know you spam it as soon as it's ready; why else would you use a 4 adrenaline skill).

Cleave may be good if you have 2 adrenaline skills only, or Cleave alone. Which means you aren't really an Axe Spiker.

At most, I can see the damage over time of the two possibly breaking even. In this case, you have to decide what you want to do:

a) Take small-to-medium size chunks of health from the enemy, a little at a time...
b) Take huge chunks of health from the enemy, really, really quickly.

IMO:
Eviscerate/Executioners/Penetrating FTW.

But I can see how each may have their uses...

Ensign, care to fill us in with same hard data with this update? So we don't get misinformation spread such as "Eviscerate sucks, Cleave is still crap," etc.

[entropy]

Umm Don't post BS. its was like a 5 points boost OMG CLEAVE IS NOW THE UBER L33T SKILL, right? /sarcasm

Twicky I really find that you still don't understand the point of spiking. Its damage fast. Cleave + dismember is just bad. Its a wannabe eviscerate. Cleave + dismember + executioners just isn't the same type of damage output that Executioners + Eviscerate + Swift chop is. Its constant and constant damage is just shitty for pvp! Great Twicky you killed boon monks. My hammer warrior could kill a boon monk. Many things can kill 1 monk. Nobody is talking about 4vs4 where you can run the sh**iest builds ever and still win. With 2 healing monks and a prot monk I doubht cleave will be enough to spike and good team.

Cro would you like to backup those statements with actual facts? +93 dmg? umm since when does cleave add 93? Your not counting the deep wound. which takes away 20% and reduces healing. Add eviscerate in their and you could run more dmg skills. Cleave +dismember is basically what eviscerate is. 3 more adrenaline is like nothing. Its not a high cost adrenal skill since i never hear anyone say executioners sucks yet its 8 adrenaline. WTF!?!?!?! is it just me or is something wrong with that?

Spiking=QUICK FAST MASSIVE DMG, Adding unnecasarry skills in their only gimps your combo

[twicky_kid]

Originally Posted by entropy

Umm Don't post BS. its was like a 5 points boost OMG CLEAVE IS NOW THE UBER L33T SKILL, right? /sarcasm

Twicky I really find that you still don't understand the point of spiking. Its damage fast. Cleave + dismember is just bad. Its a wannabe eviscerate. Cleave + dismember + executioners just isn't the same type of damage output that Executioners + Eviscerate + Swift chop is. Its constant and constant damage is just shitty for pvp! Great Twicky you killed boon monks. My hammer warrior could kill a boon monk. Many things can kill 1 monk. Nobody is talking about 4vs4 where you can run the sh**iest builds ever and still win. With 2 healing monks and a prot monk I doubht cleave will be enough to spike and good team.

Cro would you like to backup those statements with actual facts? +93 dmg? umm since when does cleave add 93? Your not counting the deep wound. which takes away 20% and reduces healing. Add eviscerate in their and you could run more dmg skills. Cleave +dismember is basically what eviscerate is. 3 more adrenaline is like nothing. Its not a high cost adrenal skill since i never hear anyone say executioners sucks yet its 8 adrenaline. WTF!?!?!?! is it just me or is something wrong with that?

Spiking=QUICK FAST MASSIVE DMG, Adding unnecasarry skills in their only gimps your combo

for 8v8 i would use evis for the massive spiking. for 4v4 cleave rapes.

4v4 has its own challenges. everything isn't always about 8v8.

[stefan16]

With alot strenght, i'd say Cleave
(Triggers streght penetration more, calculate THAT ftw, and the diffrence becomes bigger)
Dismember+Cleave ftw

[entropy]

Umm Cleave still won't compare to the spike of eviscerate. DPS is not the issue but if you want dps go with cleave and ur miserly 10% boost with strength... Eviscerate also gets 10% so its even better. The dps has already been debated so your post is pretty useless. DPS is not the issue. Its which one actually kills a person.

[Neutron Star]

The new numbers as found here on the Basin forums. Eviscerate still beats Cleave.

Average Cleave: 70.44 damage

Average Cleave Series: 44.27 Damage

Average Cleave Bonus: 8.72 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating Series: 47.51 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's Series: 47.87 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating Bonus: 11.96 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's Bonus: 12.32 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's Series: 50.32 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Executioner's Bonus: 14.77 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Disrupting Series: 46.60 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's + Disrupting Series: 46.86 Damage

Average Cleave + Penetrating + Disrupting Bonus: 11.05 Damage
Average Cleave + Executioner's + Disrupting Bonus: 11.31 Damage

Average Damage of the Cleave Sequence: 57.67 Damage Per Hit (For Great Justice!)

Average Damage of the Cleave Sequence: 59.30 Damage Per Hit (Dark Fury)

actually if you actually read the whole thread through it says Cleave out damges eviscerate in constant DPS... but the value of the Deep Wound and spike possibility may be win in the end. But my point is the article doesn't say that. So please quote carefully

[Zonzai]

Originally Posted by entropy

DPS is not the issue. Its which one actually kills a person.

Very true, and a great example of the problem with simple number crunching.

When I play my warrior in PvE I prefer cleave.

When I play my warrior in PvP (which isn't often because I usually play an ele, necro or mez in PvP) I prefer eviscerate.

I also like eviscerate when I know I will be facing a lot of difficult enemies in PvE.

[Sayshina]

Originally Posted by Ensign

... Cyclone Axe does not help Cleave charge faster at all. No matter how many enemies you're fighting, you're going to get to use Cleave once every four attacks, so Cyclone Axe doesn't help Cleave in the slightest. What it does do is help you use other skills while using Cleave - Cyclone Axe hitting 3 targets per use will let you use Cleave at its normal frequency, and Penetrating Blow at an increased frequency as well. On the other hand, Cyclone Axe does help Eviscerate immensely, allowing it to be used more frequently, and thus making the skill proportionally better. From some cursory numbers it would appear that Eviscerate outperforms Cleave under Cyclone Axe, in terms of sustainable damage, as long as the number of targets hit by Cyclone Axe is greater than or equal to two.

Peace,
-CxE

Considering the fact that I havn't played the game in a few months now, there's most likely a school of thought out there that I should not be commenting anymore, but here goes anyway.

I obviously can't test this myself, but if memory serves me correctly, shouldn't it be:

Assuming full charge
Cleave, Cyclone, Cleave, hit, hit, hit, Cleave, Cyclone, Cleave ...?

This would one Cleave/3 hits. instead of 4 as stated.

To the guy claiming the dynamic nature of the game would somehow muddy up the picture, I cannot think of a single situation (running, healing, ect.)where superior spiking would not lead to a superior outcome.

To the debate of whether or not the metagame is boiling down to a few select (debatably superior) builds: Those posts were written a while ago, and there seem to have been a couple of earth moving nerfs in between. I said before release that it was inevitable that the metagame would devolve in this manner. I said then that given a stable environment without outside intervention, ALL builds would evolve toward a common form. This is just the way things work. It is the same when designing fighter aircraft or Formula 1 racecars. As long as the rules are stable, everyone has access to the same data, so any good engineer is going to come up with the general answers.

To quote the leading Formula 1 designer concerning 1 aspect (wheelbase): "So you have a variation of less than 175 MM across this year's field."

Out of 26 cars, every one of them falls within 2 centimeters in length. Every single designer came up with more or less the same conclusion. The laws of physics don't change, the rules havn't changed, so the cars are more or less identical.

Back to GW, the skills HAVE changed, but only some of them, and there have been no new skills added. Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect something radical to appear in the future.

The devs used to compare this game to Magic the Gathering a lot. The single most important lesson MTG has to teach us is how the metagame operated. There have nearly always been 2 - 3 "superior" builds in any given card set. Generaly 1 single deck boils down as the best of the bunch, and is met by "hate" decks designed specificaly to defeat it.

The only surprise GW has for me is that there seems to be relatively little metagame "hate" going on. I suspect this has mostly to do with the decreasing level of competition, with many of the best designers leaving the game for whatever reasons. This decrease in competition is a much more likely source for many of the "new" builds you see such as the MM builds that seem to be enjoying some sort of revival.

[SnipiousMax]

Was this debate ever decided?

[Detis Zan]

Um well seeing it's been dead for months I don't think so.

Times have changed in the with the updates... Plus with all this numbercrunching it doesn't apply to the field.

Okay first off what sayshina said (I'm also a MTG player) is right about the "hate/counter builds" to the builds that's winning a lot.

Look at it like this. This doesn't apply too much in random Arenas.. sense think about all the same build mesmers (or slightly different) they all have the same staples. I.e. Distortion and other blind conditions and hexes to kill the warrior or put him out. Necros have Spiteful Spirit + Empathy etc to stop the Warriors.. Warriors who are adren based are useless unless they have something to be rid of those conditions and hexes which is hard to do to either protect yourself to deal enough damage or go straight out with the damage output.

Basically...with Eviserate monks can rid of that deep wound effect easily so it's useless unless you want to spike it at the last second. Cleave is great but it doesn't have that "CHUNK!" effect like Eviserate.

If we're talking HoH or GvG that's different too. =P Because more or less there's a build that sometimes doesn't concern the whole C. vs. E. debate.

If you want to deal fast, nonstop damage to get them down eventually then C is the way to go..

If you want to deal massive dmg in one quick blow (in a spikish way) this E is the one for you.

It really depends on what you're playing on.